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Talk:Bruce Wayne (New Earth)
The reason why I added Robin under former aliases As revealed in the Untold Legends of Batman limited series from the 1980s, Bruce Wayne was in fact the first Robin. Ya gotta love John Byrne and his retcons. If a separate article is ever created specifically for the Pre-Crisis/Earth-One Batman, I’ll remove the alias from this article and place it in the correct one. --Brian 09:56, 19 January 2006 (Eastern Standard Time) :*As promised - new article is made, so I removed the Robin alias and placed it under Batman (Earth-One). :--Brian 23:58, 1 July 2006 (Eastern Daylight Time) ----- Changed "history" subtitle to "Background of character" as listing seems more in line with dissertation of the overall characater, rather than specific detail for the actual printed fictional history specific to that of the modern incarnation of the character. Ugh, "Out-of-Universe" Just removed a buch of, well, crap copied over from Wikipedia probably. This article need some serious cleanup in terms of formatting and content. Roygbiv666 01:05, 25 March 2007 (UTC) Abilities In this section thre's a statement about "Through intense training, specialized diet, and biopathic feedback treatments, The Batman represents the pinnacle of human physical prowess." Do we have a reference for this biopathic thing? And in "Strength Level:" there's a bit about In Batman Begins we observe him perform a one arm Pec Fly of approximately 180lbs (the weight of an athletic adult male). Through mathematic extrapolation, we can safely assume that Batman can Bench Press Approximately 570 to 630lbs, and lift/press approximately twice his body weight above his head. His Leg Press capacity is well over 1500lbs (as evidenced by his ability to execute such considerable jumps and leaps) Aren't these articles supposed to be specific to the DCU, not movies and tv shows? Also, even if applicable, wouldn't this be considered "original research" and need to be excised/changed/referenced? Roygbiv666 20:30, 6 April 2007 (UTC) ethan bennet I think this stuff is from the current cartoon. should it be removed? :--Roygbiv666 15:39, 20 August 2007 (UTC) University Degrees The article is ambiguous - stating early on that he often dropped out of colleges after one semester, then stating he has multiple degrees. Which is it? --Roygbiv666 16:05, 25 December 2007 (UTC) :Currently Wayne is a college dropout and has no degrees. :Most writers in the Post Crisis reality, starting with Frank Miller in Batman #405 (1987), wrote Wayne having no college degree in order to complete Wayne's public persona as mostly brainless and lazy fool. :This conflict comes from having been changed in order to allow Wayne to have competed and join the FBI attaining the highest standing even considered for eventual directorship which allowed him to learn of and adapt the extensive tools and mastery of super-secret techniques and devices he uses in his personal crusade (without him having to have invented all of the crime fighting devices and analytic techniques himself as in the Earth-Two and Earth-One histories) after leaving the FBI for its ineffectiveness in disrupting crime directly leaving him an administrator. :Of course, this open skill mastery would leave too many people openly aware of Wayne's secret identity in-story. Most writers have removed his open intellect recognition from the character's background, and currently returned Wayne to being WITHOUT any college degrees. :Kal_l_fan 03:13, 20 Janaury 2008 There is a story that Bruce tells Leslie Thomkins that he went to multiple colleges and he had two personas. He took morning classes, in which, as Bruce, he wasn't so active in class by falling asleep and several other things. Then he had a more of a different identity he took into the night classes, in which, he did better in. He even broke into classes, using his stealth skills, possibly for practice, mainly, but he stole a lot of answers to the tests and studied them. I don't think this lasted long. He has reportedly dropped out several times. ~ J. A. R. Head Bruce Wayne's Age I'm just curious. There is anything in Batman page except his age. I mean he has three children. He was created 1938. Is there anyone who knows his age? --Akadirgun 17:29, 10 February 2008 (UTC) :Well, there are various DC chronologies that say things like "orphaned at 8", "spent x years training", etc. He's probably around 35. Keep in mind, he's been around as a fictional character since May, 1939, but within the fiction, he's relatively young, and has been re-invented several times. :--Roygbiv666 14:20, 11 February 2008 (UTC) ::Most writers put Wayne now being in his early 40s akin to Oliver Queen in order to have raised their one-time junior partners when they met and took in during their own late 20s to consider against their one time junior partner who were then young teenagers and are now all in their late 20s themselves. Though none of the series writers draw Wayne with greying hair -- yet. As in the recent imposter Batman storyline, Wayne has been written to comment about his job getting harder than it was, suggesting he is starting to get past his prime. ::Kal_l_fan 8:38, 16 February 2008 Ah, the classic dilemma. It raises an interesting question. Oldschool (i.e. Golden Age), Batman was supposed to be about 29. His age seems like an easily solvable problem. You'd think they could just make him a little younger each Crisis like they've been doing. But there are familial complications. Batman raised Dick Grayson from a young age, and Dick appears to be about in his mid-20's by now. So what happens when Dick Grayson has kids, or starts training a ward? Doesn't Tim Drake eventually have to grow up? Batman is in fact being forced to grow older, although still at a decellerated pace. And Bruce Wayne actually can't live forever. This is why, despite my issues with Grant Morrison's take on the franchise, I'm so interested in Batman R.I.P.. :- Billy Arrowsmith, 10:02, 8 July 2008 (UTC) ::Well, I know that Batman used to be thirty-five at the height of his career. Batman: Year One established that Bruce was twenty-five when he returned to Gotham after traveling abroad. He became Batman less than a year later. The timeline from Zero Hour #0 establishes that 10 years have passed since the emergence of the modern age of super-heroes (Bats, Supes, JLA etc.) to the time of Zero Hour (which was published in 1994). Now, what changes have been made to the timeline since then is anyone's guess. --Brian Kurtz 12:41, 8 July 2008 (UTC) Well if you look at publications, Batman and Detective only come out once a month. Most of the stories in each issue take place within 1-3 days. Several issues can actually take place within the same day, So really, we only know have info on about 800-900 days of Batmans life. Now those days are obviously not successive...I am sure that he spends a lot of nights foiling 1 or two muggings or robberies...these are obviously not good enough stories to put into a comic. You can assume that we only see his "highlight reel." As stated above, the last true reboot to continuity was was Zero Hour. Then No-mans land was stated to have lasted a year. There was One year later. And then I think there were a few other indicators (robin turning a year older etc. Speaking of robin...He was 14 or 15 when he started his own series (they made a big deal of getting a licensee to drive the red bird). He is now 17-18. He is finishing up high school. Looking at Dick Grayson is probably the best. He is 13-15 when he starts, in college when he becomes Nightwing, and in his early 20's when he gets his own series. So we know that there is a minimum of 12 years but I would say closer to 15. If Bruce started around 21-25, that would make him 36-40 now. That seems about right as well. On average, since Zero hour, 3 real world years has equaled about 1 comic year. When Bruce is revived (lazarus pit anyone?) He will likely be in prime health (al a Allen Scott). And therefore have another 30 years of crimefighting in him (which translates to 90 years of comics for us). IthinkIwannaLeiaWaddaUthink? 14:55, 1 May 2009 (UTC) It has been confirmed that Bruce is 35 currently. Yes, he was created in 1938, but due to the universe reboot in 1985/86, Batman was made younger. Plus, also, the Bob Cane Batman had died sometime before the 80's. I think it was Earth-One? Citations needed Looks like people love to add abilities to the list, but without citations. Please cite your sources for additions to the article. When making a statement, add the following text afterwards: source of information that way, everyone knows where the info came from. :Roygbiv666 15:31, 12 April 2008 (UTC) Scarecrow knows Batman's Secret Identity? I read this on the page, but I can't for the life of me think of when it would've happened. If it's referring to the events of Batman: Hush, I'm pretty (not entirely) sure Hush and the Riddler kept their stuff DL. I'm going to double check that when my friend gives me back my copy of "Hush Volume 2", but in the meantime, would someone care to provide reference for that? :- Billy Arrowsmith, 10:02, 8 July 2008 (UTC) I'm sure that Scarecrow, Killer Croc, Joker, Harley, Ivy, and Clay Face do not know Batman's identity. Otherwise, he'd be screwed by now... Personality Under Personality, we have the following: :Another identity Batman has used in the past is Matches Malone. Matches Malone was a small time thug who acted as Batman's snitch. When Matches was killed, Batman assumed his identity. As the Matches Malone identity, he was able to access areas of the criminal arena neither Bruce Wayne nor Batman could enter. And :Another identity used by Batman is that of gangster "Matches Malone." Matches was a small-time arsonist who killed his brother and then committed suicide by burning himself to death. Becoming Matches allows Batman to operate within the criminal community as a respected member with preestablished credibility. Which is correct? Anyone know? Cheers, --Jamie 20:33, 22 July 2008 (UTC) ::Both ::but the snitch who was actually as reformed gang boss who had a soft side was introduced WAY back in Batman #242 (1972) during the Earth-One days :: ::the small-time arsonist who killed his brother and then committed suicide by burning himself to death incarnation is the New Earth retcon starting in Batman #588 "The Secret Origin of Matches Malone!" :: ::So if you are specifically talking about the New Earth incarnation it is the arsonist. ::Kal_l_fan 19:07, 25 July 2008 (UTC) Fantastic story by Brian K. Vaughan, it can be casually browsed in most Barnes & Nobles in the collected "Batman: False Faces" along with some other Vaughan gems. :- Billy Arrowsmith, 10:05, 3 August 2008 (UTC) Complete Batman List? Are there any complete comic lists on this site? I need one for all Batman Crossovers. : We have this. Try setting one up. :Roygbiv666 20:23, 25 July 2008 (UTC) ::I'm sorry, I'm not sure exactly what you need. I'm only home for today, in less than twelve hours I'm going back to camp for another two weeks, so I can't be immediately helpful unless you get this by around 1pm EST. But the Batman Storylines category is sort of like a son to me, and I'd help anyway I could. What exactly are you looking for/why? :::- Billy Arrowsmith, 10:05, 3 August 2008 (UTC) I think there should be a list of comics based on Post-Crisis/New Earth continuity, another list on Pre-Crisis/Earth-One and another for Pre-Crisis/Earth-Two. And, mainly just collections/TPBs. If not, and it's a big event (Like in Earth-One, Jason's origin and New Earth's origin for the character.). ~ J. A. R. Head Sin Tzu, citations Dark-Light-Angel 15:19, 9 August 2008 (UTC) As far as I know, Sin Tzu does not exist in New Earth in the DC Universe. He has only ever appeared in the game, 'Rise of Sin Tzu' and in a novelization. Is this story canonical? If not, the statement, Having learned the "Art of War" by Sin Tzu, Batman can formulate amazing strategies. should be deleted immediately. I'd also be glad if someone could clarify the line He has deflected a bullet with a batarang before. for me. Where is the reference for this? I've only ever seen Batman deflect a bullet in the recently released, Gotham Knight. And since this article discusses the New Earth Batman, that doesn't count. :Since we don't know who wrote it, could it mean -- The Art of War (Chinese: 孫子兵法; pinyin: Sūn Zǐ Bīng Fǎ) is a Chinese military treatise that was written during the 6th century BC by Sun Tzu. Composed of 13 chapters, each of which is devoted to one aspect of warfare, it has long been praised as the definitive work on military strategies and tactics of its time. ? Anybody? :Roygbiv666 19:47, 9 August 2008 (UTC) Sin Tzu or Sun Tzu? I agree. Most likely it refers to the books by Sun Tzu. In order to avoid confusion I think we should put in an internal link on The Art of War. Although it may be unnecessary with an internal link...I also think it might be a good idea to revise the sentence a bit. How about: 'Having studied the ancient The Art of War texts by Sun Tzu, Batman has learned how to formulate amazing strategies.' So how about it? Any ideas on how to make it more concise or is that fine? Another suggestion I'd like to make is that we add a section for Batman's suit and equipment. Of particular interest to me is the Suit of Sorrows. It first appeared in Batman: Resurrection of Ra's Al Ghul. Its origins were later expounded upon in Detective Comics #842. Apparently increases Batman's speed and strength. Or in more detail: http://www.angelfire.com/mi2/dcuniverse/batequipment.html I am not entirely sure of the reliability of this site so I'm not suggesting we use it as a reference. To my knowledge Detective Comics #842 & Resurrection of Ra's Al Ghul are safest references currently available. Does anyone else think the Suit of Sorrows is worth mentioning? :I think the Suit of Sorrows should have its own article or should just be tacked onto the new Azrael's page. He will be the one wearing it for a while, and I doubt it will play a big role in Batmans life (death?) from now on. ::Yeah, I ended up making an article for it here awhile back. :::- Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 15:05, 1 May 2009 (UTC) Major Events I have to admit, I am not all that familiar with the guidlines for Major Character Articles. I recognize that it would be impossible to list all the adventures our heroes have been on. But this Batman article seems a little short. Is it allowable to have a Major event's section before the Recent events section? It would only include main, life changing events in Batman's life that had lasting consequences (e.g. Breaking his back, No man's Land, etc. There really hasn't been that many. I know this opens up the can of worms of, "what is significant," but I think this article has much too little information in it. I will try to review the guidlines but if anyone more knowledgeable has input....IthinkIwannaLeiaWaddaUthink? 15:11, 1 May 2009 (UTC) Well, if we just pin point the MAIN stories of his life from 1987 to now. You can see what I mean in my post down below entitled "More Information..." ~ J. A. R. Head Robin is the new Batman After Wayne's apparent death, Grayson has taken on the role of Batman. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman_and_Robin_(comic_book) I don't have the correct info to add this right to the article, but it also questions whether Batman and Bruce Wayne should be separate articles. -- LordTBT Talk! 06:35, 4 June 2009 (UTC) :Check it out, Grayson's page is updated. :— Nathan (Peteparker) (Earth-1218) (talk • • ) 06:56, 4 June 2009 (UTC) ::Ah, I see. It seems that Grayson taking on the role of Batman screws up the site, and WP for that matter, given that "Robin" was a mantle taken up by several characters, thus Robin has an article regarding the mantle itself. Batman was always synonymous with Wayne, and was never considered a "mantle" to be taken up by someone else, thus Wayne and Batman are the same. Now that it is a mantle, it's hard to fix all the redirects and such. -- LordTBT Talk! 07:40, 4 June 2009 (UTC) :::No it's not. It's always been a mantle. It's been a mantle since the first Earth-Two story where Dick Grayson became Batman. And also when Jean-Paul Valley became Batman. And also when Dick Grayson became Batman for the first time (this is the second time he's become Batman in mainstream continuity alone). We already have separate articles here for Bruce Wayne, Richard Grayson, and Batman. No redirects need to be updated. Nothing is screwed up. ::::- Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 07:58, 4 June 2009 (UTC) ::::That's what I thought. At any rate, I think I clicked something and got confused. I did some more clicking and found everything is right as you said. Great job. -- LordTBT Talk! 08:15, 4 June 2009 (UTC) More information... We need more history on Batman. There isn't a whole lot. We got like the first week of him in Gotham and then some recent stuff and his "death" but, other than that, there isn't much that tells people who Batman is. First off, we need to change "Returning to Gotham in his early twenties" to "Returning to Gotham at the age of eighteen" since it has been confirmed by R. I. P./Batman and Robin writer, in a interview with Wizard magazine, that he started his career at the age of eighteen. Due to this page being "New Earth" we need to include information on him during "Year One", "Monstermen", "Mad Monk", "The Man Who Laughs", "Four of a Kind", "Year One: Batman/Scarecrow", "Year One: Batman/Ra's Al Ghul", "The Long Halloween", "Two-Face: Year One" (Depending if he's in it...), "Dark Victory", "Robin: Year One", "Batgirl: Year One", and "Nightwing: Year One"! Not only that, but Jason Todd's second origin needs to be included along with "Killing Joke", "Death in the Family", and the "Knightfall" trilogy along with whatever led up to the event. Also, whatever important events between some of these events. Along with Bruce's and Dick's relationship from when Dick is 12-17 years of age including he perminant joining with the Teen Titans and Bruce's perminant firing of Dick. Also, his involvment in "JLA: Year One" and "Trinity" also, his first meeting of Superman in the story from the "Man of Steel" short-series from 1985. Also, some of the important stories from "Legends of the Dark Knight" and "Batman Confidential"! C'mon, guys! If this is a Wikia page, it needs more information for those who are curious! For the new readers who want to learn more and stuff! I was a little disapointed at this page when I first saw it. No offence. But, Superman and all the other characters have histories on theres while Batman has... Really nothing... ~ J. A. R. Head Good and all, but... It's good that we added new information about his whereabouts after his death and that stuff, but again... COULD WE GET MORE INFORMATION ABOUT WHEN HE WAS LIVING!? It's all in my above rant about what information NEEDS to be included! You can find what I'm talking about above in the post "More Information..." J. A. R. Head 23:26, December 12, 2009 (UTC) :J.A.R.? Are you aware that you can add the information you're asking for, also? I've been reading your comments on numerous pages and I agree with what you're saying but I'm not sure if you realize that we're all volunteers also. None of us are professional DC Comics historians (at least that I know of). I'd add the information you're suggesting myself if I could but I don't have that knowledge. I don't have near the comic collection to even begin to make sense of the history of Batman. So most of us, I suspect, add what we can where we can. I certainly don't want to douse your enthusiasm, we could certainly use it, but you need to know that you're preaching to the choir here. We know there're gaps and we're fixing what we can. Rather than tell us what needs fixed, you'd be better off trying to fix it yourself and we'll help out when we can. --WolfordMnemsis 01:45, December 13, 2009 (UTC) LOL, oh! I thought we all had to discuss it before we could make changes. Well, okay. Unfortunately, I have enough troubles trying to figure out how to use the Wikia. There are SOOOO many butons and I'm new to Wikias. I don't know how to download/upload pictures to my computer or how to even put them up on the Wikia. And I only know what I know from what I've read on sites and this wikia along with Wikipedia. I actiually don't go to the comic shop as much. But I consider myself SOMETHING of a comic historian. I just don't know everything. I know as much as a I know. J. A. R. Head 03:18, December 13, 2009 (UTC) :It wasn't all that long ago I was in your shoes. Most of the regulars here will attest that I've pestered them with many a stupid question. It does seem very overwhelming at first but you'll pick up a skill here and there and, pretty soon, you'll be rocking and rolling like the rest of us. Pick a person or issue you think you can contribute to and give it a shot. We'll jump in to help and, if worse comes to worst, the powers that be can undo any changes we make with a click of their mighty mouse!!!! --WolfordMnemsis 03:26, December 13, 2009 (UTC) Okay, well could you guys help me now? I'm looking for some info on the story Batman: Four of a Kind which is a four part collected story based on the origins of Riddler, Poison Ivy, Man-Bat, and Scarecrow. I looked at Detective Comics anual#8, and no synthosis for Riddler's origin which doesn't help much... J. A. R. Head 03:32, December 13, 2009 (UTC) :Well, the issues involved are: Detective Comics Annual Vol 1 8, Batman: Shadow of the Bat Annual Vol 1 3, Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight Annual Vol 1 5 and Batman Annual Vol 1 19. Click on the links but I don't think they're all populated with the info you're looking for. --WolfordMnemsis 03:44, December 13, 2009 (UTC) Thanks, I'm currently editing now. I already got "Year One" covered and "The Man Who Laughs" along with the stories based during "Year One", "Monster Men" and "The Mad Monk". Although, I may need someone to go back and expand on what I've written on "Monster Men" and "Mad Monk", when I'm finished, because I couldn't find anything but short discriptions that didn't help much to explain those parts of Bruce's life. Now, I guess I'll head into the "Four of a Kind" storyline and put those down. Thanks. Also, if anyone could help me expand with events between the graphic novels (Which are mainly stories featured in "Legends of the Bat" and "Batman Confidential") could you place those where they need to be? That is, if you know when they occur? Or maybe we could make a section called "Other adventures" and put some of the main events that occur in the stories. Just a opinion. J. A. R. Head 04:52, December 13, 2009 (UTC) Finished, but not all the way... Okay, I've posted most of Batman's history for the past several hours. Although I have filled out a lot of Batman's life, there are parts under "To be edited...", meaning there IS a story there but there was not a story cited on any site. If someone could come up and fill in the spots that have "To be edited" under them along with filling out the sources as well, hence why Scarecrow, out of the four (Riddler, Man-Bat, Poison Ivy, and Scarecrow) was the only one in the story "Four of a Kind" who's first battle with Batman is cited. Please, if there are any early adventures that are big in Batman's history (The early history can be found in the titles Legends of the Dark Knight (1989-2007) and Batman Confidential (2007-)) or any stories I missed between the events I listed, please put them in there chronicaled areas. And like I said before, fill in the places I didn't fill in and say "To be edited..."! J. A. R. Head 08:41, December 13, 2009 (UTC) :Nicely done, J.A.R.! It looks fantastic! Just in the interest in helping you become a better contributor let me point out two things: 1) the biggest drawback of the wiki system, in my opinion, is there's no spellcheck function. I see you've copied most of your text, which is great by the way - no need to reinvent the wheel, but if you write a good bit yourself, what I do is copy and paste it into a word document, run the spellcheck function then replace it into wiki. 2) Especially for characters like Batman and Superman who have been around for a very long time, we need to keep the pages to a manageable length. I like how you've divided the history into the highlights of his career - exactly right! Long term we may need to streamline the text within each section as the history is likely to continue on forever. The nice thing about wiki is, if we get it to the proper place in the future, all the details here will be in the individual issue entries also and we can create links for those who want to know more. But as I said before, this looks fantastic! Be proud! --WolfordMnemsis 13:28, December 13, 2009 (UTC) Thanks, Wolford! I quite enjoyed going through and looking for some of the information and rereading some of what I've read once already! I'll make sure to fill out that Supergirl section, although I didn't last night. I read the comic some time ago. Great story! Jeph Loeb should stick with DC. But, like I said, this isn't all of it. I had to skip some important events that came around in the 90's around the time of "No Man's Land". Also, the "To be edited..." sections need to be replaced with some history. I know there is some. And I know Batman helped, somewhat, along with Flash, Aquaman, and Wonder Woman, in encouraging the teens into becoming a team and continuing on. I read that somewhere! Also, I may have skiped events in Batman's early few year. I also, kinda, need some pics. But, over all, I am proud of what I have put together! Thanks! J. A. R. Head 14:01, December 13, 2009 (UTC) :A much needed history, nice work. Here is a list of Batman storylines for your reference, some are probably Earth-One, so you'd have to check them out. Maybe some of the sections could be made into sub-sections as you did with Knightfall? Personally, I prefer a link to the specific issue or storyarc, with just maybe a paragraph for each arc in the character entry, but good to see it filled in. :: 00:35, December 23, 2009 (UTC) Thanks! It took me some time. Around eight hours. But, it was worth it. I quite enjoy the character. Always been a fan since I was little. When I saw this I was a little disapointed that there wasn't anything here. But, I'd also like to thank the guys who added link to the page. I wasn't sure how to do it. I still need some of the history behind Batman's involvment in the first Teen Titans team (Featured in Teen Titans: Year One). Along with the stories (Which links provided above in this section) of Riddler's, Poison Ivy's, and Man-Bat's first battles with Batman. But, thanks again. :D J. A. R. Head 03:05, December 24, 2009 (UTC) :Looks like there are some issues with synopses, some without: Teen Titans: Year One Vol 1 1 doesn't have one, but Teen Titans: Year One Vol 1 2 does. These might help. :Whenever you can't figure out how somebody did something, have a look at a page with something you want to do, go into Edit mode, and see what kind of code they put around the text. Links are easy, just put two square brackets on either side of the text you want to link to. You can also change the way the name of the link is displayed by adding the pipe symbol (usually located above the "back slash" on the keyboard. So, you can link to Batman by adding the brackets like this: Batman. You can change the way the link is displayed by adding the pipe and how you want it to look: Greatest Superhero in the Universe, Ever!!. :: 16:19, December 24, 2009 (UTC) Thanks for the little bit of info! I appreciate it! :D But, unfortunately, I've never read TT: Year One at all. So, it would be hard for me to do any sort of editing on it. But I do remember reading something about Bruce, Barry, DIana, and Aquaman supporting the TT in some way. I forgot what it was, though... not sure if that's right anyway.... J. A. R. Head 18:42, December 24, 2009 (UTC) Article Overhaul Personally, I think his entry is a bit of a mess (J. A. R. Head's massive work notwithstanding) and could benefit from an overhaul to shorten the history sections with links to the storylines, and either providing proper citations or deleting all the unsupported material. Ideas? :Roygbiv666 -- 16:21, January 16, 2010 (UTC) ::I'm working on it. :::- Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 06:59, March 26, 2010 (UTC) Marriage Okay, let's talk Son of the Demon. Ra's al Ghul performed an official marriage ceremony on Batman and Talia al Ghul in DC Special Series Vol 1 15. He didn't consent to it, and it happened while he was drugged, so he didn't really consider it valid. But then in Son of the Demon when he actually got into a serious relationship with Talia, he intended to marry her officially, but when she explained that they were already married he accepted that. And then they had hot sex (this time not involving him punching her out, unlike their honeymoon) and conceived a child. Son of the Demon was OOC after Zero Hour, but Infinite Crisis seems to have brought it back in a slightly mutated form. Grant Morrison got some details wrong and blamed Superboy-Prime punching reality (love that retcon). Batman claims to have basically been raped... but it's not clear as to whether this meant the entire encounter leading to the pregnancy, or simply the lack of birth control... he probably meant to finish with some Head of the Demon if you know what I mean. Anyway, my point is... should we list Talia in his relatives section? Does she clarify for Talia al Ghul (ex-wife)? :- Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 06:59, March 26, 2010 (UTC) Timeline I can't seem to find any canonical resource determining what time Batman joined the Justice League in present continuity. Was it before or after the introduction of Robin? was he a member of the League throughout all of Long Halloween? I would appreciate any light shed on the subject, or even further speculation. all I really need is like a panel of Robin being introduced to Superman to figure this out. :- Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 18:43, April 5, 2010 (UTC) ::In Batman/Superman/Wonder Woman: Trinity #2, where Batman met Wonder Woman, Superman throws a wink to a spying Dick. If this is still in continuity after Infinite Crisis, this would indicate that Robin was active when the League first formed. -- SFH 19:31, April 5, 2010 (UTC) Picture Change? can i PLEASE change that outdated profile pic now that Bruce is back with a new costumeAvenging-X-Bolt 15:12, September 7, 2010 (UTC) :I'd say not yet. At least wait until Return of Bruce Wayne is over and he has actually shown up in that suit. -- [[User:Tupka217|Tupka]][[User talk:Tupka217|''217'']] 15:16, September 7, 2010 (UTC)